It's really a shame that a lot of potential nice people don't get a crack at the rarities because of the few who continue to exploit the current "freeloading" situation but as long as there are people who are profiteering (and crapping up by boots by converting them to lossy format) it will be as it is. It isn't because people with the boots "hoard." There will always be people who are naive enough to think they can change human nature by giving it all away and people who guard the rarities so they're not exploited. Seems to me that the "hoarders" do all the work, have the knowledge and have the boots. If you want to continue to naively talk out your ass, you don't have anything to stand on except, gimme what's yours because I know it exist and I want to hear it...talk about the misconception of entitlement. Show some respect for the people who have gone before you and what they know and how they got what that have and maybe, just maybe, out of mutual love for the music and a building sense of trust, you'll hear the material.

"One cannot have it both ways - and retain any credibility at all."
I have no right to attack your credibility just as you do not mine.I really don't care what you take or give from DIME..It's really none of my business . I honestly don't care.Why would I have any right to tell you what you can and cannot share? By you telling people what they can share..IN fact..lends me to believe you are a "Gimmy" How credible is that?...Yea,The JB show was good.Next time I download ANY show I will first ask for your permission. ...Iwazzabadboy

OK, just to recap - there is no defense of the hypocrisy, just insults and name calling?

The interesting thing is that there really is great irony and naiveté on this subject, if one actually wanted to see it.

^ Actually I think there has been a more than adequate defense of this alleged "hypocrisy" but I'll run it down again one last time.

First to recap here is the reason as stated by Denise on the Dime site that many of us don't like Dime A Dozen:

"For the record, I would like to tell everyone the reason why The Petty Files, Fillmore set, as well as other TPATH collector sets are not and have not been uploaded to dime or any other torrent site for that matter, can be summed up in one simple word, EBAY.

I am willing to bet that this Mudcrutch tape torrent will end up on Ebay being sold by some slimeball within a week or two and some idiot will be dumb enough to pay alot of money for what s/he can get for free. It has absolutely nothing to do with people hoarding or "look what I have" at all. It is b/c of people selling boots on ebay and getting upwards of $100+ for them."
------------------------
Take it or leave it thats the reason right there why people like myself, Lucy and others aren't the hugest fans of Dime. We abhor sellers and those who try to make a "second income" off by selling rare recordings on ebay and ioffer.

Again personally I have nothing against dime a dozen, those who use it or anything like that. In fact I recall you saying T-Fest that most of your collection comes exclusively from torrent sites (or at least that you don't snail mail) so without DAD you wouldn't have much of a collection right? - That probably goes for many others too. So for that alone I'm appreciative of Dime because it helps introduce a lot of genuine fans/collectors to this hobby who otherwise wouldn't have access to great shows like "20 Nights At The Fillmore".

I am just also aware that there is also a breed of "fan" that likely uses Dime exclusively to line their pockets and thats really unfortunate because thats not at all what this hobby is about
--------------------
Now that I've recapped that I would like to address your notion of "hypocrisy" among those who download off of Dime and yet do not upload "other material that many others would like to hear or see".

First off if we are talking about me personally there is almost no hypocrisy that I'm aware of as I've never downloaded a damn thing off dime (unless my memory is failing me) and I've also never uploaded a damn thing onto that site. Check my ratio - Its 0-0 - As you made reference to in an earlier post I mainly use that site personally to "look, but not touch" as it keeps me updated with all the new ROIOs that are out there which aides me in compiling listings that help collectors know which boots contain which songs which is a frequent question asked here on the bbs by a myriad of people.

As for the other people who claim are guilty of "hypocrisy" by downloading off of Dime and not uploading material...

While you are entitled to your opinion, in my mind there is no "hypocrisy" here. The very people you are making reference to here have all put in massive amounts of time helping people out who otherwise would be unable to find boots. We have all at one time or another helped many fans who were just starting their collections and continue to do so to this day.

Just because we don't come onto an official bbs and brag about who we helped out or the B&P requests and freebie request we have filled in that particular month or whatnot doesn't mean they don't happen. I have personal knowledge of many of the people who use accuse of such hypocrisy helping Petty fan after Petty fan so I can make that call.

From trees, to B&Ps, to trades, to freebies we have all done our share in spreading the music in free manner from fan-fan. Therefore, I don't see any hypocrisy if say "I Wazza Bad Boy" downloads a torrent off Dime so he can enjoy some new music himself because he has helped out many who have come to him with their hands out as well.
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Now with all due respect, T-Fest you may not like or even agree with my "defense" here but I have just given you a legitimate defense without any insults or name calling.

All The Best

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JohnMill,

"Tomfest2002 Aug.17th 2007
Just curious if anyone has any of the shows from the June-July 1999 time frame where the band was playing Rhino Skin. It seems they played it just about every show in June and some into July. If so, is anyone up for a trade? I simply must hear some Rhino Skin live and in color!"
"Iwazzabadboy Aug.7th 2007
6/23/99...I got it...not in color,but LIVE STEREO...PM me.....Iwazzabadboy"

Your Welcome....Iwazzabadboy

JohnMill - I'm aware of your reasoning about potential sales on eBay, and as you know, I disagree with that position. But that wasn't the point. I'm also aware that many folks here have shared various material with others over the years. I've done the same thing myself. And no, Dime is not the sole source of the "lining of my pockets" (ooh, wasn't that an insult?), as I've been collecting and trading vinyl bootlegs and tapes since the 70's. But that also wasn't the point.

The discussion was specifically about a small group of people deciding what other people can and cannot share, all the while enjoying the unrestricted generosity of those others - be it on Dime, or elsewhere. If the shoe fits....one must wear it.

And Steve, - I'm pretty sure I thanked you for that trade, and you received some nice things back from me. Anyway, no hard feelings to anyone.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

^ I just wanted to clarify one point in that if you re-read my posting I'm not accusing you of selling anything or using Dime to "line your pockets" - I'm sure others do use that site to line their pockets though. I would hope its nobody on here personally.

As long as myself, Steve and others continue to help others out through B&Ps, trading, or whatnot I can personally say I have a 100% clear conscience about not personally using Dime as a means to share any material in my collection.

As far as downloading off of Dime, I personally don't do it but as long as someone who does finds another way to contribute to helping other collectors (be it trades, B&Ps etc.) and just does not constantly only have their hand out waiting for it to be filled without giving anything back in return then it all shakes out.

You take a little and you leave a little.

Well, I'd like to weigh in on this as well. I download from Dime but always give back as much or more that I take-I've never uploaded a torrent myself, have no plans to do so, as I really don't have the technical expertise or the bandwidth to do so. Dime is policed pretty closely in regards to what's allowed and what's not. Occasionally a live set will sneak on that has a track or two which has been officially released as a B-side or something, but usually that's pointed out pretty fast and the torrent yanked, and it stays yanked until the offending track is removed. There is no leeway for this, it is zero tolerence of offically released material, and there are plenty of watchdogs out there.

I actually see sites such as Dime as destroying the old fashioned bootleg for profit system that artists have been fighting for years. I know that I would never consider buying a boot either in a store or off of eBay, simply because most of the boots I would want usually turn up on Dime or one of the other sites.

I also think most of the folks who download a particular artists' shows usually own most if not all of that artists' official releases, often in multiple formats. Jesus, I've bought so many "reissues" of Elvis Costello records that I can tell you I have no guilt about downloading an unofficial Elvis show on Dime. Downloading shows and outtakes which often sound like they were recorded in the bottom of a barrel are usually not done by casual fans. It's usually the hardcores who sincerely love the artist and already own everything else.

And let's face it. TP knows those recordings are out there and being shared, trust me. I'm sure he views it as something cool for fans, or as free publicity for his official releases, etc.

Just my take. And oh yeah, I would love to do a "blanks and postage" trade with some kind soul for Fillmore Daze and the Petty Files.

Freeloading is freeloading. No one would know who is downloading what on dime except when it shows up on eBay or someone's trade list. Once a boot leaves your possession, it's a crap shoot. It's out of your hands and it's up to the rest of the world to maintain a healthy conscious about what they do with it. For me there's not much difference between a site like dime and the old trade group trees and weeds except it's more immediate and you save on postage. It's like trading always has been- until someone figures out a way to discriminate between people who exploit the boots for their own monetary or personal gain and people who just want to share the music, it's up to the individual to discriminate what they are comforable exposing and what they aren't with their collection. Trading has always been based on building up trust and friendship with the people I share my collection with and hopefully, it's a two way street.

If you look at the way dime is set up it's like a perpetual tree. It's an automatic that you take (download), you give (upload). There's already a balance built into the system.

quote:

I actually see sites such as Dime as destroying the old fashioned bootleg for profit system that artists have been fighting for years. I know that I would never consider buying a boot either in a store or off of eBay, simply because most of the boots I would want usually turn up on Dime or one of the other sites.

I agree with everything you posted Rickenbacker except for this point. I think a place like dime just makes it even easier for someone looking to exploit the boots for personal gain for the same reasons it makes it easier for us, the traders to get copies. It doesn't change human nature and it doesn't change the fact that there are people too lazy, uniformed, or naive to not buy this stuff off eBay. One of the real questions is why should we even care about these little guys on eBay? Why should we "police" eBay and the boots? I think it comes down to ones own conscience, again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rickenbacker12:
I actually see sites such as Dime as destroying the old fashioned bootleg for profit system that artists have been fighting for years. I know that I would never consider buying a boot either in a store or off of eBay, simply because most of the boots I would want usually turn up on Dime or one of the other sites.

I couldn't agree with you more. Quite awhile ago before I was saavy to any of this stuff I bought 2 TPATH bootlegs on eBay. Yes I did. I had no idea there were sites to download for free and when a few years later I discovered Dime and the Traders Den I found myself in an orgasmic state of ecstasy! LOL. I realized that I don't have to do that with eBay, that I shouldn't do that and that I would never do so again.

So yes Rickenbacker you are right on the money. I am so grateful for those incredibly generous uploaders who share what they have. What a great attitude they have.

I feel some people may be letting ego get ahead of the music and that is a shame. I really don't understand this way of thinking. A few bootleggers on eBay may make a few bucks here and there and they are slime for doing it but for the most part by offering what you have hundreds if not thousands and thousands of Petty fans get to hear and share his music.

My share ratio on Dime is over three times what I have downloaded. I am willing to share what I have and feel good about it.

It may not be a perfect system but it is definately worth having it out there despite a few flies in the ointment. I'm sure Tom is aware as well of the problems that do result but he has not requested for his music to be removed from these sites. So I'm grateful to him too.

Lucy, you could be right. Sites like Dime DO make it easier for those recordings to get into the hands of the unscrupulous. But I think the unscrupulous are finding a MUCH smaller audience for their wares because of the torrent sites. And let us not forget, bootlegs existed LONG before computer technology. They WILL happen, whether we like it or not.

I interviewed Warren Haynes of Gov't Mule two years ago, and we discussed the topic. The Mule makes most of their concerts available on their website on a pay per download system-you're getting soundboards with a small amount of post-production, yet they also allow recording and trading of any of their shows, even the ones which are available on their site.
As a result, he said he couldn't even remember the last time he was told about a Mule boot selling on eBay or anywhere else.

I find it kindof funny that pretty much everyone in the dime "all for one, one for all," "you can't stop the profiteers on ebay unless you flood the marketplace with the rare stuff" camp of thinking are also the very same people that are in the gimmie camp.

I would venture to guess that once you got your gimmie gimmie little hands on the rare material, you would quickly understand and flip to the other point of view and keep a tight lid on the rarities in your collection thus becoming one of the music snobs/hoarders you have ripped on and fought against for all those years. LOL

It's an ongoing problem for sure. I used to monitor eBay and contact the bidders and offer them whatever I had that they were bidding on as a B&P. I met and made quite a few grateful newbies, fans and even traders that way back in the day. Then eBay changed their access.

I'm not surprised to hear that Govt Mule would have that kind of success. I'll bet it's the same for the Deadheads who were really at the forefront of "freeloading." The problem lies within each fanbase which are as varied as the artists they follow. I found the Stones boots to be more freely offered as well, but there's a load on eBay...larger fanbase, more suckers? It's really hard to say.

I particular frustration for me lately has been finding out that people are taking the freely offered Petty boots and converting them to MP3 format to upload at another site. Why not teach this people to use SHN or FLAC at dime or one of the other trading sites? Why dumb-down and pervert the music to accomodate these fans? It just shows you again what a crap shoot it is and there are people out there with their own agendas with the music. Respect the artist...respect the music. That's the top of the list for me.

(Tom Petty, Mike Campbell and Jeff Lynne)
SONG OF THE DAY>Take 1

Your daddy was a Sgt. Major
You didn't wanna but he made you
Wipe his brass from time to time
It left a picture in your mind. You know? You know?
You want it all, you want it all
All or nothin'

Here am I a fallen arrow
My load is wide, my street is narrow
My skin is thicker, my heart is tougher
I don't mind workin', but I'm scared to suffer
You know? You know?
You want it all,you want it all
All or nothin'

Sweet chariots of L.A. swing low
At twilight time the smog makes a rainbow
So keep one eye on the weather
You had it good, you wanted better
You know? You know?
You want it all,you want it all
All or nothin'

Give this great song a good listen..A masterpiece,,,Iwazzabadboy

I guess when it's all over it's up to the individual and their own conscience. As a part-time writer, I get lots of advances-I've had several of TPs up to a couple of months early before release date-there's really no temptation to share them-for one thing it would kill any credibility I had with the publicists. I respect the artists and the process. In fact, I don't even let my closest friends know they're in my possession, that way I avoid the "I have to say no" scenario. Makes me feel a little like a snob or a jerk sometimes, but that's just the way it has to be. Once it's out of my hands, I have no control over where it's going.

quote:

Originally posted by Rickenbacker12:
I guess when it's all over it's up to the individual and their own conscience. As a part-time writer, I get lots of advances-I've had several of TPs up to a couple of months early before release date-there's really no temptation to share them-for one thing it would kill any credibility I had with the publicists. I respect the artists and the process. In fact, I don't even let my closest friends know they're in my possession, that way I avoid the "I have to say no" scenario. Makes me feel a little like a snob or a jerk sometimes, but that's just the way it has to be. Once it's out of my hands, I have no control over where it's going.

Exactly..well put..Iwazzabadboy

As promised here is a rough outline of the various compilations relating to Mudcrutch.
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Compilation #c1
Tracks: 6
Length: 21:50

[A] Don't Make It Any Easier (6:10)
[B] Lookout City (Country Girl's Gone Wild) (4:02)
[C] Down & Dirty (4:26)
[D] Come On And Save Me (4:24)
[E] Janglin' (2:48 )
[F] Really Knocked Me Out (4:06)
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Compilation #c2
Tracks: 8
Length: 28:21

[A] She's A Screamer (3:15)
[B] Move Over Rover (3:30)
[C] Making Some Noise (4:04)
[D] Mad Dog (3:21)
[E] Long Way From Home (4:28 )
[F] On The Street (2:10)
[G] Don't It Get Weird? (4:03)
[H] Once Upon A Time Somewhere (3:30)
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Compilation #c3
Tracks: 8
Length: 33:41

[A] She's A Screamer (3:16)
[B] Don't Make It Any Easier (5:41)
[C] Making Some Noise (4:09)
[D] Long Way From Home (4:31)
[E] Don't It Get Weird? (4:05)
[F] Once Upon A Time Somewhere (3:32)
[G] Come On And Save Me (4:27)
[H] Lookout City (Country Girl's Gone Wild) (4:03)
------------------------
These three sets comprise the three main compilations of material that all of the Mudcrutch rarities collections over the past twenty years or so have been compiled from.

The first (#c1) is a direct dub of the "Mudcrutch Rehearsal Tape" and features the original version of "Don't Make It Any Easier" with Tom Petty singing the middle eight. It also features recordings of "Lookout City (Country Girl's Gone Wild)" and "Come On And Save Me". These two recordings also feature in nearly identical versions on #c3 but in lesser quality although "Lookout City (Country Girl's Gone Wild)" on that compilation possibly comes from a mixdown and features a comment by Tom Petty at the start of the track (either "Love" or "Yeah") that is missing altogether on #c1.

There is one subset of this compilation which contains only the first two tracks (A & B). The piano intro on "Don't Make It Any Easier" as found on this subset is about a second longer than it is on #c1 but the song itself is in inferior quality when compared with #c1.
--------------------------------------
The second compilation (#c2) contains the complete demo tape that Mudcrutch recorded in Benmont Tench's parents' living room and later took with them to Los Angeles. This compilation is easily the best sounding Mudcrutch material available.

Although it has several tracks in common with #c3 the versions found on this tape are of much higher fidelity. The version of "She's A Screamer" on this compilation differs greatly from the version found on #c3 as embellishments have been added to that recording and it is generally thought to date from after the recording of the original demo heard here on #c2.

While no subsets of #c2 have surfaced you should be aware that on occasion some collectors have bundled the songs from #c1 together with this compilation usually featuring those songs directly after the music on #c2 concludes. These are not alternate recordings of course but just represent a friendly taper including some extra material to fill out his disc/tape. The #c1 recordings that are sometimes found tacked onto the end of bootlegs containing the #c2 material are of course identical to the versions foudn on the #c1 compilation.
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The final compilation I will mention is #c3 which some may argue is basically just a subset of #c2. This would be true except some tracks found on this compilation (A,B,H) are unique to this set.

The first two tracks (A & B) are thought to date from the sessions at Shelter Church Studios in 1974. The versions of "She's A Screamer" and "Don't Make It Any Easier" seem to post-date the versions of these songs found on #c1 and #c2. "She's A Screamer" features many embellishments not heard on the version which appears on #c2 while "Don't Make It Any Easier" features Danny Roberts singing a solo vocal instead of handing the middle eight over to Petty.

"Lookout City (Country Girl's Gone Wild)" is of course the previously mentioned version containing an audible comment by Petty at the start of the song which does not feature on the version found on #c1. This does not mean this is a difference performance as a close side by side comparison of the two will reveal they are the same performance. "Come On And Save Me" is also found on #c1 and is is my belief that the version here on #c3 is just a rather poor dub of that song taken from that compilation. Again there is no audible difference between the two besides the sound levels on #c3 sound completely overblown.

Which brings me to my next point, in almost every way the music found on #c3 is inferior to the music it has in common with #c1 & #c2. This is due to two reasons, the aforementioned sound levels giving the recording a very bassy sound and also the tape appears slowed down when compared with the superior compilations.

I should also note that some collectors have bundled two other tracks ("Another Lonely Night" & "Lost In Your Eyes") along with the eight tracks found on #c3. But according to Patrick Wern who has been researching this stuff for the better part of twenty years these tracks post-date the Mudcrutch era and should not be mentioned when discussing this material. It is my belief that they both date from the period when TP was recording his aborted solo album in 1975.
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I'll wrap this up simply by saying that while bootlegs to this day draw heavily on material from all three compilations, most of the material found on the recent DAD upload by Little Panda comes from #c3. He coupled this with some TP&HB outtakes from 1977 but these again are not Mudcrutch related demos.

The one collection you should beware of however is something called "Mudcrutch Rarities". This compilation sourced from #c2 (and adding some of the material found on #c1 to fill out the disc) slows down the music to snails crawl, basically taking all of the warmth out of the recordings. So that is probably the only bootleg of Mudcrutch recordings that you should beware of in my opinion.

Finally you should be aware that there apparently is a fourth (#c4) compilation of Mudcrutch material that has existed since the 1980s. It has only be heard by a few collectors and I've been told that it contains the same music as found on #c2 although it is not known whether it is found in superior quality or inferior quality when compared with that compilation.

quote:

As a part-time writer, I get lots of advances-I've had several of TPs up to a couple of months early before release date-there's really no temptation to share them-for one thing it would kill any credibility I had with the publicists.

Hopefully then you can empathize with the audiophiles who trade rare recordings with each other not wanting to kill their credibility. These don't just appear out of thin air and there's always the sense that it's really up the artist to decide what and when they want their material to see the light of day...however long it takes. Any sort of public distribution should really be the decision of the artist.

I have a SBD of a TP&TH show that does not circulate, as well as another 70 shows or so (some more rare than others). I also have thousands of hours of shows by many other bands. I would like to trade for a copy of The Petty Files if someone is interested in a trade. Please get in touch if so. Thanks for your time!