There is that photo on the jacket for Echo, of a beautiful statue and it looks like the godess Tara, godess of compassion and chaos (among other things)> It looks like it is wellover 6' high, made out of cast metal. Has anyone else noticed this?

worldview has a copy of a single with the same photo on the covr, maybe she will post it again.

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And I'm taking in the Indain summer/ Ans I'm soaking it up in my mind? And I'm pretending that it's paradise/on this golden autumn day/on this golden autumn day. Vam 'The Man' Morrison

I wonder whose influence that is? Is it Jane? Dana? Tom himself? Do they know what it stands for? I had never noticed this, very interesting. Does Tom dabble in Eastern religions? (is this an Eastern religion?)

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~There's no one to beat you
No one to defeat you
Except the thoughts of yourself feeling bad~
Bob Dylan

Hi Clarrisa, the worship of Tara is , as far as I know mainly a Bhuddist thing.

Wouldn't be surprised if George Harrison gave it to him or turned him on to it, as he is well known for his love of things Eastern.

I think that Tara is worshipped in India, but might have another name.' Worldview ' is a bit of an experton Tara, as she was initiated, I believe, into Tara worship by his Holiness, The Dali Lama.


Om Tara, tu tare, tu hare so ha.

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This thread inspired me to pull out the cd and look at the pictures yesterday - very interesting!

We may never get this chance again
Let's party for the rest of the night!

It is interesting. Poor George, I think he believed in every single religion at some point in his life... I hope he found a sense of peace and resolution before he died.

I wonder where Tom and the band are now in terms of their beliefs? I sort of get the feeling that at least Tom, is still a bit undecided because of lyrics like "when the ground gives way / you have to pray / to the unknown / and hope it's real".

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~There's no one to beat you
No one to defeat you
Except the thoughts of yourself feeling bad~
Bob Dylan

While the practice of Tara was preserved in Tibet for the last 1000 years, respect for mother earth as a goddess goes back to the beginning of time in many cultures in many parts of the planet and ancient goddesses named Tara are found in Ireland, Southeast Asia, Northern Mexico (the Tarahumare Indians living in the Canyon De Cobre have a goddess Tara who represents the unspoken language that unites all people). The word Tara means "star" and most believe her worship to be associated with early man's awe of the cosmos. Mostly her archetype symbolizes liberation (freedom), generative growth (hence the color green), and loving kindness.

The early Buddhist practice of Tara was brought to Tibet from Bengal in the 9th century ad. There is a bengalise story associated with Tara that may be why Tom chose to put her in the Echo artwork, which after all has a song about a Free Girl.

It used to be believed that one couldn't attain enlightenment in a woman's body. (this is according to the practices that were happening in India where the buddhist Tara originated.) Well, Tara found out about this and she made a conscious decision to only be born into a woman's body each lifetime to prove the male dominated Eastern Religions of the time wrong. So, she was perhaps the first symbolic historical feminist.

I think it is also important to note here, so as to not sound like I am trying to convert you all, that Buddhism is actually not considered a religion. Instead, it is referred to as a science of mind, aiming to give folks some practices to help them overcome their own suffering by liberating the mind from delusions that enslave it. Even the Dalai Lama himself is the first to say: "my basic religion is kindness".

Please do not think I am preaching. Heck, my grandparents on my Dad's side were Southern Baptist Tent Preachers and I probably opened my mind to all forms of philosophical thought (went out and saw the world) in reaction to my upbringing. And I agree wholeheartedly with George Harrison when he sang: "When you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."

Be a goddess in the planet wars, trying to save all living things. NEIL YOUNG

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

[This message was edited by worldview on October 02, 2003 at 08:52 AM.]

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It is interesting. Poor George, I think he believed in every single religion at some point in his life... I hope he found a sense of peace and resolution before he died.

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Hare Krishna is a Hindu sect to which Mr. Harrison belonged. According to its tenets, the immersion of the ashes is symbolic of the soul's journey towards eternal consciousness.

And a quote from George Harrison in an interview dated 1982

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"I always felt at home with Krishna. You see it was already a part of me. I think it's something that's been with me from my previous birth…. I'd rather be one of the devotees of God than one of the straight, so-called sane or normal people who just don't understand that man is a spiritual being, that he has a soul."
--Interview, Henley-On-Thames, Oxfordshire, 1982

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As you can see George Harrison followed this particular religious belief for many decades. I think he stopped searching many years ago and had found his peace and religion.

Thanks Worldview, for the indepth response. I had no idea. I wonder if this was all a conscious decision on Tom's part or if it was happenstance? I wonder what he thinks about all that stuff?

And thanks Fender -- I didn't realize that Hare Krishna was a part of Hinduism. I think I was thrown off by the "Hallelujah's" in the song, which is Hebrew ("hallel" = praise; "jah" = shortened from Jehovah), meaning "praise the Lord". I'm not sure how all that gets reconciled since in Judaism and Christianity, the whole "there is only One God" thing is a big deal, maybe he was just using it as a generic phrase. Plus I never put a lot of time into deciphering the lyrics but looking at them on a lyrics website, he's obviously singing about the Hare Krishna stuff.

Anyway, obviously he did stay on the same path religiously for a good part of his life.

Interesting stuff.

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~There's no one to beat you
No one to defeat you
Except the thoughts of yourself feeling bad~
Bob Dylan

There is one truth. There is only one planet and we all exist under the same set of natural laws.



Love unites, hate divides.

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

great stuff. i am intrigued by people's natural curiosity.

If we don't have a soul, then what ae we? A collection of elemental atoms? even existentialists say that thee is a higher power than them. Joni mitchell says, 'we ae star dust, we are golden, and we've got to get back to the garden.

Did you know Worldview, tha the first female Buddist monk was ordained as a preist in Thialand this year after trying for 37 years, 37 Years, whew! That's dedication.

I doubt that anything much TP does is happenstance, perhaps some of his inspiration is, but he seems like a definite kinda person to me.

I lost faith last year, I now call it a'spiritual crisis', but I lost my faith in myself, my family, my friends, people in general and society(I never have really had too much faith in the establisment). it took a very profound reawakening for me to understand the duality that perplexed me. I still struggle from time to time, but mostly I accept that it is what it is.

I was gratified to read the thread that Clarrisa started, as it proved that there are a number of thoughtful, intelligent ans articulate people on the bbs.

Thanks for the very good detailed history of Tara, yes I would agree that she might have been the first historical feminist. Is she like Buddah, manifest in flesh? I didn't think that you were preaching, only imparting knowlege. Thanks.

john Lennon said in a song'god is a concept by which we measure our pain'

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I can hear that engine/hear that engine drone/I'm onthe road again/searching fo that philosophers stone. Van Morrison

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Thank you gonegatorgirl, for your kind words.

I had a big crisis of faith a few years ago but it ended up being very good -- I now know what I believe very firmly and I am so awestruck with the logic and tapestry of my religion.

One of the things that I really like to do is try to see the world from another's point of view (no pun intended, lol!). I think I can see where some of the friction comes from Western Buddhists and Christians... Christians don't see the earth as a goddess or a mother or anything more than a "creation" -- a lump of dirt and clay so to speak. There is no sense of the earth having a personality of it's own. There is a very strong separation between the Creator and the creation for Christians (and Jews). While many (most?) Christians definitely believe in good stewardship (taking care of what you're given) and believe strongly in environmental issues, recycling, etc., there is a stronger sense that the "earth will wear out like a garment but His love will last forever" (Isaiah). And the theology is very strong that there is no attainment of diety for ourselves... we will never be more than created beings, in relationship with the Creator. No wonder there is friction.

I am happy to hear how other people and see and experience this world / life though. Makes for tolerance.

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~There's no one to beat you
No one to defeat you
Except the thoughts of yourself feeling bad~
Bob Dylan

I really believe the lyrics "whatever gets you through the night" when it comes to each individual's spiritual orientation. Sorry I don't know the song writer on that one. But I do think that all traditions have a piece of the whole picture and if we learned to love and respect each other's views of the world we might actually achieve world peace on this planet.

On thing I didn't mention about Tara and all of the buddhist 'deities' is that there is a bit of a misunderstanding from the western perspective in that folks think buddhists are worshiping statues or gods instead of one god. Well, to be honest, those deities are really only mathematical forumlae personified. Cosmic energy manifesting into a mathematically perfected human form so we human folk can better relate to them. Buddhists and most ancient religions see a unity between science and faith, between nature and man.

The practioner meditates and reflects on these positive archetypes of cosmic energy. By doing so one "becomes" the deity, at least trying to be a better person from reflecting on positive qualities. Kind of like the ancient Hermetic teachings that say "as above, so below".

But the kicker is that the elusive"enlightenment" is all about overcoming one's suffering and achieving "changeless happiness".

Of course, once asked a buddhist teacher if there was by chance a 'quick path to enlightenment'. His response was "yes, faith".
And I have to say, the Dalai Lama himself has criticism for buddhists in the face of motivated Christian faith. He points out that of all the buddhist monasteries being built worldwide, it is the Christian folks who put their love into action by always building hospitals and schools along with their churches.

All I ask is that people be 'one hearted' and treat each other like equals no matter their financial situation, religious orientation, country of origin, band of choice, whatever. Because there is no doubt in my mind we were all children of the same cosmic creator.

May all beings be happy. May all beings be free.

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

"Whatever Gets You through The Night" was written and performed by the late, great John Lennon...a thoughtful messenger on many topics.

"What you don't have, you don't need it now. What you don't know, you can feel it somehow." U2

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Originally posted by worldview:
I really believe the lyrics "whatever gets you through the night" when it comes to each individual's spiritual orientation. Sorry I don't know the song writer on that one. But I do think that all traditions have a piece of the whole picture and if we learned to love and respect each other's views of the world we might actually achieve world peace on this planet.

On thing I didn't mention about Tara and all of the buddhist 'deities' is that there is a bit of a misunderstanding from the western perspective in that folks think buddhists are worshiping statues or gods instead of one god. Well, to be honest, those deities are really only mathematical forumlae personified. Cosmic energy manifesting into a mathematically perfected human form so we human folk can better relate to them. Buddhists and most ancient religions see a unity between science and faith, between nature and man.

The practioner meditates and reflects on these positive archetypes of cosmic energy. By doing so one "becomes" the deity, at least trying to be a better person from reflecting on positive qualities. Kind of like the ancient Hermetic teachings that say "as above, so below".

But the kicker is that the elusive"enlightenment" is all about overcoming one's suffering and achieving "changeless happiness".

Of course, once asked a buddhist teacher if there was by chance a 'quick path to enlightenment'. His response was "yes, faith".
And I have to say, the Dalai Lama himself has criticism for buddhists in the face of motivated Christian faith. He points out that of all the buddhist monasteries being built worldwide, it is the Christian folks who put their love into action by always building hospitals and schools along with their churches.

All I ask is that people be 'one hearted' and treat each other like equals no matter their financial situation, religious orientation, country of origin, band of choice, whatever. Because there is no doubt in my mind we were all children of the same cosmic creator.

_May all beings be happy. May all beings be free._

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

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Hey , it was John Lennon that wrote 'what ever gets you through the night'

As Tom says 'there ain't no easy way out', grace never mond enlightenment doesn't come easy.

I like that'changeless happiness", all emotions are fleeting and subjective and are just basically sensations created by our thoughts or minds workings. When it is a achieved during meditation it is profound but fleeting.

Why is it we are so afraid of nothingness?

I like the Desiderata's advicestrive to be happy. which is what you have to do, not everyone is fortunate to have happy neurobiochemistry. We have to work to overcome our handicaps.

I think sometimes I can't distinguish between what is being projected onto me, expectations enculturation and socialization. Your right'you have to keep one eye open the further you go' which bythe way is one of my favorite songs to play on the guitar.

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All you need is love

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Originally posted by worldview:
I really believe the lyrics "whatever gets you through the night" when it comes to each individual's spiritual orientation. Sorry I don't know the song writer on that one. But I do think that all traditions have a piece of the whole picture and if we learned to love and respect each other's views of the world we might actually achieve world peace on this planet.

On thing I didn't mention about Tara and all of the buddhist 'deities' is that there is a bit of a misunderstanding from the western perspective in that folks think buddhists are worshiping statues or gods instead of one god. Well, to be honest, those deities are really only mathematical forumlae personified. Cosmic energy manifesting into a mathematically perfected human form so we human folk can better relate to them. Buddhists and most ancient religions see a unity between science and faith, between nature and man.

The practioner meditates and reflects on these positive archetypes of cosmic energy. By doing so one "becomes" the deity, at least trying to be a better person from reflecting on positive qualities. Kind of like the ancient Hermetic teachings that say "as above, so below".

But the kicker is that the elusive"enlightenment" is all about overcoming one's suffering and achieving "changeless happiness".

Of course, once asked a buddhist teacher if there was by chance a 'quick path to enlightenment'. His response was "yes, faith".
And I have to say, the Dalai Lama himself has criticism for buddhists in the face of motivated Christian faith. He points out that of all the buddhist monasteries being built worldwide, it is the Christian folks who put their love into action by always building hospitals and schools along with their churches.

All I ask is that people be 'one hearted' and treat each other like equals no matter their financial situation, religious orientation, country of origin, band of choice, whatever. Because there is no doubt in my mind we were all children of the same cosmic creator.

_May all beings be happy. May all beings be free._

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

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Hey , it was John Lennon that wrote 'what ever gets you through the night'

As Tom says 'there ain't no easy way out', grace never mond enlightenment doesn't come easy.

I like that'changeless happiness", all emotions are fleeting and subjective and are just basically sensations created by our thoughts or minds workings. When it is a achieved during meditation it is profound but fleeting.

Why is it we are so afraid of nothingness?

I like the Desiderata's advicestrive to be happy. which is what you have to do, not everyone is fortunate to have happy neurobiochemistry. We have to work to overcome our handicaps.
Also your plea for one heartedness, is brilliant, ithink if we all were that way our planret would be a seriouslu happy place. LOL Could you imagine if we din't put any of our energy into negative of destructive pursuits? 'A mind is a great thing to waste,' I don't know who said that.

I like your positive focus worldview.

I think sometimes I can't distinguish between what is being projected onto me, expectations, enculturation and socialization and my own shit(read desires). Your right'you have to keep one eye open the further you go' which bythe way is one of my favorite songs to play on the guitar.

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All you need is love

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Love is the Greatist Gift of all



Let it go ...It will all work out~ Howie in my dream

Human suffering seems to be a common theme in many traditions. At least most offer an idea of how to overcome suffering. I like the hit from the Greek Tradgedies that say: "You have to suffer into awareness". So, in a sense, those who suffer more actually have a greater chance of waking up and evolving.

By the way, the word Buddha literally means "awake". He became awake by giving up his princehood in Nepal to go homeless and wander India and Nepal studying all of the traditions of his time, contemplating on them, then coming up with an idea that made it all clear and offered a path for everyone else out of suffering. But he had to let go of all his worldy goods and ties to achieve this state of mind, this awakened state of changeless happiness.

One thing I do respest in the man Jesus is that he too worked and lived with the poor and tried to offer those folks some hope in their lives.

Guess it is a good sign that historical spiritual beings have chosen to work for the underdogs and against oppression.



Now that she's back in the atmosphere
with drops of jupiter in her hair,
she acts like summer and walks like rain.

Reminds me that there is time to change.
Since the return of her stay on the moon,
she listens like spring and talks like June.

Tell me did you sail across the sun,
did you make it to the milky way
to see the lights all faded,
and that Heaven is overrated.
Tell me did you fall from a shooting star,
one without a permanent scar,
while you were looking for yourself out there.

TRAIN

"You have to keep one eye open the further you go"

Yeah, Jesus was so incredibly radical and shook things up so severely. It's really amazing they didn't kill him before they did. There were 4 major religious leader groups within Judaism at the time. Most of them were waiting for the Messiah (all thinking about what he would look like in different terms), but for the most part, they all believed that the Messiah would approve of them the most because of their activities. They thought they would be liked and be on the "in" with the Messiah because they either were really holy (the Qumrans), followed the Mosaic law with intense precision (the Pharisees), maintained the Temple and oversaw the sacrifices with great care (the Saducees), or because they were fighting for freedom from Roman rule even though it was mostly a hopeless cause (the Zealots). They all felt like the Messiah "owed" them approval and relationship.

But then Jesus shows up on the scene, and not only does he not approve of them and choose them as God's shining stars, he chooses the total losers of society to be in relationship with him and to be "God's people" -- the prostitutes, the tax collectors (who were Jews hired by the Roman government to collect taxes from their fellow Jews, often extorting a great deal of money for themselves in the process), the uneducated, etc. And to make it all so much worse, he told stories all the time about how the people who thought they were owed relationship and approval from God were the very ones who were excluded. The only ones who got to have relationship were the ones who accepted it as a free gift, knowing that nothing was owed to them. It was scandalous beyond what I can say here -- when forced to choose between righteousness / holiness and relationship, he'll choose relationship everytime.

So yeah, it is cool that he choose the underdogs... did throughout the entire Biblical writings -- chose the least likely, least qualified, least everything to be His respresentatives.

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~There's no one to beat you
No one to defeat you
Except the thoughts of yourself feeling bad~
Bob Dylan

hi Worldview, I like your writing style, so sluid and informative.

when I had my 'spititua; crisis' my doctor would talk with me about tthe meaning of suffering, and where it could lead. At the time, my suffering was so great, that I couldn't see past it, even tho I understood intellectualy what the was telling me. And, although I still suffer, it is more fleeting and I have more awareness around my suffering.

So that's what Jesus said too, in a differnet way "suffer little children to come unto me".
You are so knowlegable Clarrisa, the word Zealot still is used today to describe the same type of people.

Buddism and Christianity are both redemtive religions that preach love and tolerance.

In some ways to be human isto suffer.

Hey i like that Train song, I saw him on TV last week and he is a really good blues singer, they did a jam of 'Heartbreaker'.

Does tha tmean if you hav epiles of money, or tha tmatrial possesions posses you instead of you possesing them, that you can't become enlightened? That is a rhetorical question. But it seems that of the people that I know tha tare on a spiritual path, most have very little and verry little interest in aquiring wealth or possesions. (I'm a sucker fo guitar's)

Clarrisa, hav eyou ever listened to Jesus Christ Supersta? The lyrics are powerful and I love the music. I don't understand how he could have been divine and human also. He certainly shook up the Roman oppressors, and the elite of society. How were some people so wise to know that he was expected? I have heard that the stars fortold, but I think it must have been something more. By choosing who would surround him, the ordinary or the outcast he made it clear that he thought that status and power were not the way to heaven/nirvana.


She's standing by the rododendrums where the roses are in bloom/looking out at the Atlantic ocean
And in her head she hums this tune
Thank God the dark nights are gone in the daysbreak
'Cause high summers got me down
Got to wait til the end of August to get off this merry-go-round

And they shut him out of paradise
Called him Lucifer and frowned
Shw took pride in what God made him
Even before the angels shot him down
He's alight out of the darkness
And he wears a starry crown.

VAn Morrison [/QUOTE]

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I don't understand how he could have been divine and human also. He certainly shook up the Roman oppressors, and the elite of society. How were some people so wise to know that he was expected? I have heard that the stars fortold, but I think it must have been something more.

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Gonegatorgirl, here is a great website that might help answer your question. It is very informative. Who is Jesus

~~Sometimes at night, I see their faces,
I feel the traces they left on my soul.
These are the memories that made me a wealthy soul~~ Seger